Talk:Charles Darwin

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Small fix on the lead

Charles Robert Darwin FRS FRGS FLS FZS JP (/ˈdɑːrwɪn/ DAR-win; 12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist,geologist and biologist ...

There should be a space: naturalist, geologist ... 2804:14D:BE81:84F2:E081:8EEA:3208:A16F (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done: well spotted, thanks! AntiDionysius (talk) 23:57, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lede image

Wouldn't it be better to use this Featured image of Darwin instead of the current one?

GuardianH (talk) 04:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current article is fine. It includes the above image with a suitable caption (search for "between 1862 and 1866"). Johnuniq (talk) 05:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1860 debate

The account here is the popular one, but it is probably apocryphal. Wikipedia has a page on this debate which gives a more accurate version. MirrorSquirrel (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Darwin's support for the inheritance of acquired characters

It should be made clear that in "The Origin" Darwin attributes several adaptions to what he calls "use and disuse" which involves the inheritance of acquired characteristics which is a component of Lamarck's theory of evolution. Currently the article mentions that three of Darwin's contemporaries (Robert Grant, Ernst Haeckel and Herbert Spencer) held Lamarckian views. It also describes one of Darwin's notes as dismissing as absurd the Lamarckian view of progression to higher forms. This gives the impression that Darwin had discarded Larmarckian thinking which is wrong. Darwin argues for Lamarckian evolutionary mechanisms in "The Origin" and even more so in the later editions and other subsequent published material. References:

"Darwinian evolution includes Lamarckian inheritance of acquired characters", International Journal of Epidemiology, Yongsheng Liu, Volume 45, Issue 6, December 2016, Pages 2206–2207 (https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyw182) [This paper notes the (apparently) growing support for the inheritance of acquired characters today and suggests that Darwin was actually correct in his adherence to it]

"Lamarckism" in Encyclopedia Britannica (https://www.britannica.com/science/Lamarckism) [See the section titled "The influence of Lamarckism"]

It should also be stated in the article that Darwin did not understand that natural selection was responsible for species conformity (stabilizing selection) and this led him to articulate, in "The Origin" a confusing theory about variation being dependent on a change to the "conditions of life" (see the second sentence of "The Origin").

Reference: "Darwin on Variation and Heredity", Rasmus G. Winther, Journal of the History of Biology 33: 425–455, 2000 (https://philpapers.org/archive/WINDOV)

"The Development of Darwin's Theory" (book) by Dov Ospovat, Cambridge University Press [pages 77-83 (paperback edition) talk about Darwin's ideas on variation].

These two intimately related issues are interesting and noteworthy and, by including them in the article, will give a fuller, more balanced and more interesting account of Darwin. Failing to appreciate these points makes reading the Origin of Species a confusing exercise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gourdiehill (talk • contribs) 23:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dave souza: Do you have any thoughts on this? To me, it seems a bit unnecessary to mention that 160-year old initial investigations concerning a ground-breaking theory might have had some rough edges. Is there something in the current article that is misleading? Is there a reason the reference in the article concerning the issue should be doubted? Johnuniq (talk) 04:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning of "Lamarckism" changed after Darwin's time, see On the Origin of Species#Developments before Darwin's theory: Charles Darwin's grandfather Erasmus Darwin outlined a hypothesis of transmutation of species in the 1790s, and French naturalist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck published a more developed theory in 1809. Both envisaged that spontaneous generation produced simple forms of life that progressively developed greater complexity, adapting to the environment by inheriting changes in adults caused by use or disuse. This process was later called Lamarckism. Lamarck thought there was an inherent progressive tendency driving organisms continuously towards greater complexity, in parallel but separate lineages with no extinction. .... Some anatomists such as Robert Grant were influenced by Lamarck and Geoffroy. This article rightly describes one of Darwin's notes as dismissing as absurd the Lamarckian view of progression to higher forms – Darwin discarded that central Larmarckian idea. Lamarckism#Darwin's pangenisis notes that CD proposed natural selection as the main mechanism for development of species, but (like Lamarck) gave credence to the idea of heritable effects of use and disuse as a supplementary mechanism. There's a case for a very brief mention of this, but the focus has to remain on concisely outlining Darwin's theory of natural selection. . . dave souza, talk 06:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Full Title of Darwin's book

The complete title of Darwin's most famous book was missing from this article. I added the full title, but it was rejected as if it were not an improvement.

How can adding the complete title of Darwin's book not beneficial to an article about Darwin? Bushido77 (talk) 23:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because it doesn't matter at all to actual understanding of the book or its significance: the title of the article for the book is merely On the Origin of Species, because that's the name it actually goes by. In almost any place other than where it is given on said article, giving the full title is tantamount to introducing trivial clutter. Remsense ‥ 论 23:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Darwin gave the title to the book. I think it is highly disrespectful to write an article about a man and only abbreviate the title that he gave to the book.

Can we get someone else to weigh in on this? I am interested in a mediator to weigh in on this. Bushido77 (talk) 00:13, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, your opinions don't seem to be based in anything external to yourself. Wikipedia is a tertiary source: we decide how subjects should be discussed, named, etc. by weighing how the body of secondary sources do so. It's not your or my place to impose our idiosyncracies on a subject's presentation, or decide they deserve special treatment.

See WP:NC for our policy on naming conventions, which goes hand in hand with how we title articles. Specifically, see WP:SUBTITLE for how we deal with the subtitles of books, which directly contradicts your opinions on the matter. It's fairly clear what site policy is here, and I recommend not wasting anyone else's time in lieu of familiarizing yourself with it. In fact, this very book is used as an illustrative example of when not to use the full title. Remsense ‥ 论 00:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You said " It's not your or my place to impose our idiosyncracies on a subject's presentation, or decide they deserve special treatment."

My response: I did not give the book the title. It is not my idiosyncrisies. The title came from Darwin... not me. How is it "special treatment" to actually include the full title of Darwin's book?

I guess you are opposed to mediation? Why? Bushido77 (talk) 00:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be your idiosyncrasy to insist we call it what no one else calls it. Darwin doesn't have an editorial veto on Wikipedia, believe it or not. Remsense ‥ 论 03:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the Origin of Species is the title of the article on the book. It gives the complete title of the book which is just a distraction here. As said above, the book is known as On the Origin of Species and the extra words are unfamiliar and only confuse the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 00:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I still find no reason to exclude the full title of his book. But if you are the final authority... I guess that is that. Bushido77 (talk) 00:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And no reason to include the full title of the book when (a) the short form is usually used for it, (b) there is a separate article on the book, and (c) there is no confusion. Note that "Charles Darwin" in the book article is used instead of "Charles Robert Darwin" since the former is the usual name for him. I note the book title in full is given in the Works Cited section of this article and that is good practice for bibliographies (barring book titles where the title might be dozens of words long). Erp (talk) 03:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason, which has been plainly stated to you several times, is that we call things what they are usually called. You can have your particular tastes that differ, but don't pretend we didn't give you a clear reason. Remsense ‥ 论 03:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your opinions. I wonder if mediation is available on this subject?

You said "And no reason to include the full title of the book when (a) the short form is usually used for it, (b) there is a separate article on the book, and (c) there is no confusion."

My resposne - if there is no reason for the full title of the book, why did Darwin give it that title?

(a) OK, the short form is usually used. It appears about 16 times in the article. Why are you opposed to using the full title even once?

(b) OK, there is a separate article, so why mention it so many times but never give the author's full title any credit?

(c) So, you are saying that Darwin was confused when he titled his own book?

You did not give a clear reason as to why it is unacceptable to include the author's chosen title of his most famous book in an article about that author.

I am still learning Wikipedia and hopefully soon I will figure out how to request mediation. It is simply wrong to not include the full title of the author's book. Bushido77 (talk) 11:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]